Hello everyone! I would like to tell you how I play this kit and what's so awesome about it and basically how much I love it! ![B)]( "B)")
I really love Swashbuckler 11->Fighter and Shadowdancer 13->Fighter kits![o:)]( "o:)")
.
(let's say it right away - Thief's thac0 is crap, you want real carnage? This is the way to go!)
There is a recent topic about a Swashy/F and I think there is enough to get some ideas about the kit, so I've decided to share my thoughts on Sh/F. (Maybe later on I will write about Swashy too)
Stats:
(Remember that you can do it however you want it and don't criticize my min/max approach please![:)]( ":)")
, but we can discuss it ofc)
Str 18
Dex 18
Con 18
Int 15 (16 with a tome, for mind flayers)
Wis 3 (totally worthless)
Cha 18 (So you can enjoy the benefits of it)
This requires a roll of 90 and I personally will not start the game unless I get it. If you're lucky enough to get above 90, then you can put those extra points in Wisdom so that you can gain some mental satisfaction, don't forget you'll get 3 Wisdom tomes -> Wis 6, and if you've rolled 94, then I'm sure you will be happy with Wis 10![=)]( "=)")
(If you can't dual class to a fighter, that's because you've distributed your stats to YOUR liking and probably do not meet the requirements of dual-classing from a shadowdancer to a fighter.)
So, if we play as a Shadowdancer throughout BG->SoD, then let me get to this straight away => other non-thief and non-mage classes still solo and don't cry about not having 'Knock' spells or Thief abilities. I'm not saying that this build is for solo only, you can play with a party, or obtain some NPCs for a temporary help, whatever.
This kit is not aboutlock picking or disarming traps, the main focus is on Move Silently and Hide In Shadows. Yet if you want, it probably will not hurt to have Open Locks and Find Traps both at 35-40 at some point.
(It is up to you whether you want to start off with locks/traps or moving silently, obviously it will greatly affect the game style in BG/SoD only. ).
Logic behind it is simple, after Dex tome you will have 19 Dex and lockpicking/traps will rise to 40-45 (with another 5 in a far future from the Machine of Lum the Mad, Dex+1, making it 45-50).
So if you play solo and so desperately want to open at least some chests and disarm some traps then:
Potion of Master Thievery x1= 80-85 / 40-45
Potion of Perception x1 = 60-65 / 60-65
Potion of Perception x2 = 80-85 / 80-85
Potion of Perception x3 =Unlock all , Find/Disarm all
Potion of Master Thievery x1+Potion of Perception x1 = Unlock all / 80-85 Traps
And then:
BG2 Ring of Danger Sense = x /+25 (+30 with another Dex stat)
BG2 Ring of Lock Picks = +25 / x (+30 with another Dex stat)
In BG2 we can easily mostly use 1 Potion of Perception + Ring.
Now let's get to more important stuff: Move Silently and Hide In Shadows
-To initiate stealth we go with formula (HiS+MS)/2+Environment (basically look for darker places, won't matter much later on), while remaining in stealth depends only on MS.
-So MS is our priority, since its still adding to (HiS+MS)/2 the same amount as HiS.
(10+0)/2 = (0+10)/2 (Duh)
I personally have 220 points in MS, the rest goes to HiS. With Dex +2 I have 230 and in case I want to wear Boots of Stealth, I'm getting very close to 255 and it would be really bad if I somehow got over 255![:(]( ":(")
HiS is gonna have like 70-105 points, depending on how many points were put into locks/traps. (80-115 with dex+2).
After you put on Shadow Armor or Night's Gift, HiS=85/90 - 120/125, and with Boots of Stealth 100/105-135/140.
Now don't get me wrong, Boots of Stealth are great, since you get both MS and HiS from them, so while MS gets +20, the chance to go stealth gets additional (20+15)/2, BUT!! for me it's an overkill and I find Boots of Speed much much better for Shadowdancer/Fighter game style (more on that later), plus you can always drink a Potion of Perception for additional 20 HiS, but I highly doubt that you'd ever need it, I don't.
This is what we'll have at level 13 as a Shadowdancer, the reason we are going 13 is for backstab x4, and also any lower level may not give us enough points for MS/HiS. Again, to get it out of the way - backstab x4 that you can constantly do one after another is more satisfactory than Assassin's x7 (so you do it once and what? so you use HLA and then what? bet it really feels like you're an assassin! No, I don't think so, Shadowdancer feels like a true mass murdering ninja assassin. Yes, sure you can carry 1000 potions of invisibility as an Assassin, yeah right, or I've got a better one: you can enter and exit areas like a million times throughout the game, mwahahaha enjoy!)
The reason we went with a Shadowdancer in the first place was due to => Hide in plain sight, while being observed!
And now Profeciencies:
Waste points into anything you desire for whatever reasons while you are Shadowdancer just to make it a more comfortable play without penalties etc. Unfortunately, you're really mostly wasting points, oh well, such is a path towards Sh/F greatness.
When you dual to a Fighter, there are 4 approaches that I offer, 2 of which are theoretical![:(]( ":(")
:
1.)
Quarterstaff: Grand mastery (max)
Two-Handed Weapon Style: Max
Long bow or Short bow: Grand mastery (max)
(while my BG allows swapping between duals and two-handed, my BG2 doesn't, so I don't bother with ideas like Quarterstaff/dual Katanas or whatever, where you backstab with Staff of the Ram and then switch to Katanas immediately for some slashing fun, in which case you could start with Katana grand mastery+dual, and then Quarterstaff+THW. Doesn't have to be a Katana, but it's decent for backstabbing until you get the OP staff)
This is my way, just for the Staff of the Ram and Bow on swap, and whirlwind is not bad at all![;)]( ";)")
.
2.)
Your main weapon or Katana: Grand mastery (max)
Single-Weapon Style: Max
Long bow or Short bow: Grand mastery (max)
Quarterstaff: 1 (while being Shadowdancer, for example, just for crush dmg availibility)
(Here you can carry a single melee weapon and a bow without slot issues in BG2, instead of a quarterstaff you can choose your main backstabbing weapon and go for a single weapon style, since getting that Staff of Ram is quite a journey, although we would find any other enchanted staffs helpful for their crushing dmg![;)]( ";)")
. So here you will still have 19/20 roll on crit when not backstabbing plus -2 AC)
3.) Theoretical (I'll hide it under spoiler, so it doesn't take additional space):
4.) Theoretical:
Now why did I put Bows? (apart from obvious reasons of dealing fire dmg)
Shadowdancer13/Fighter game style is closer to Diablo style, it's hit and slash, barely ever pausing, just micro-controlling your character.
I use bows for extra fun, since repetitive hide->backstab can become tiresome, I left for you to decide which bow type to master, basically it's either Short Bows->Tuigan for its APR (Attacks per round) and DPS, then combined with Boots of Speed you just hit and run, need to get into the rhythm, no need to click on whom you wish to attack, since I kinda get the feeling it gets in the way and actually attack command breaks the APR, better to use script for auto-attacks and just use move, so you move slightly->auto-shoot->move->auto-shoot etc.. or from Long Bows we can go with Strong Arm or Taralash, you've guessed it - for speed movement, plus Boots of Speed![:wink:]( ":wink:")
for running around.
Now, you probably don't want to use scripts when you're backstabbing, so bow tactics mentioned above are only for those times when you're tired of hide/backstabs.
So, we mainly play without scripts, but we can still apply our bow on occasion, I'll give you a hint: Arrow of Biting, Hide![:wink:]( ":wink:")
Now that's just being nasty!!! That's why I mentioned Taralash, because if you don't intend on having fun with bow from time to time, then you could just use it for bonus movement and +5 thac0 along with grand mastery so your arrow of biting hits, they aren't unlimited you know, you get them from special stock in the Adventurer's Mart![:smiley:]( ":smiley:")
Of course it's just for your pleasure, test it out, those saves vs death in BG2 might not allow you to abuse it like in BG1, you know that Dragon in SoD, oh man, she cried.
Also it's logical to use bows when not constantly backstabbing, because you don't have great AC, you're not wearing plate armor (Hide In Shadow), but that being said, you can still just use melee only, since time spent invisible is your kind of AC improvement if you get what I mean, it's like you're only seen for a while after backstab.
Basically Shadowdancer/Fighter is a total pain in the ass, as mentioned above, you can combine some nasty tactics to annoy and frustrate your enemy for your emotional pleasure.
Some additional tips![:smile:]( ":smile:")
- Annoy wizards until they become harmless: you can cancel plenty of wizard spells directed at you, just wait till they start casting and go stealth, you can repeat that until they have nothing left in their arsenal. Even if it's something like fear etc. you can still do it and will remain invisible and unscratched, just will have to wait out it's effect. Your own spell immunity![:blush:]( ":blush:")
- You can wait in stealth until most of nasty enemy protections run out, I think it mostly takes like half a minute, or (4 rounds, 24 sec)
- To break out of stealth without attacking you can just use 'dialog' on yourself, this is in case you want to stay at distance or as mentioned above speed up the process of wiping wizard's memorized spells.
- You can try arrow of biting on someone and deal with others through backstabs, repeat, by the time you've killed lackeys, the main threat might be also near death)
- I'd recommend hot-keying melee weapon, stealth and bow to let's say A,S,D , while you can make 1,2,3 for potions. (I told you it's more of a Diablo play style) so you don't have to pause, just 'S' - stealth, get behind (Boots of Speed rly speed up the process), 'A'->switch to melee weapon, backstab then either stay at melee range and use HLA's whatever, or press 'D' (bows) and move away, shoot, wait for stealth availability -> 'S', repeat![:wink:]( ":wink:")
.
I might add some other info later on, for now it should be enough to get some people interested in trying it out.
I really love Swashbuckler 11->Fighter and Shadowdancer 13->Fighter kits
. (let's say it right away - Thief's thac0 is crap, you want real carnage? This is the way to go!)
There is a recent topic about a Swashy/F and I think there is enough to get some ideas about the kit, so I've decided to share my thoughts on Sh/F. (Maybe later on I will write about Swashy too)
Stats:
(Remember that you can do it however you want it and don't criticize my min/max approach please
, but we can discuss it ofc)Str 18
Dex 18
Con 18
Int 15 (16 with a tome, for mind flayers)
Wis 3 (totally worthless)
Cha 18 (So you can enjoy the benefits of it)
This requires a roll of 90 and I personally will not start the game unless I get it. If you're lucky enough to get above 90, then you can put those extra points in Wisdom so that you can gain some mental satisfaction, don't forget you'll get 3 Wisdom tomes -> Wis 6, and if you've rolled 94, then I'm sure you will be happy with Wis 10
(If you can't dual class to a fighter, that's because you've distributed your stats to YOUR liking and probably do not meet the requirements of dual-classing from a shadowdancer to a fighter.)
So, if we play as a Shadowdancer throughout BG->SoD, then let me get to this straight away => other non-thief and non-mage classes still solo and don't cry about not having 'Knock' spells or Thief abilities. I'm not saying that this build is for solo only, you can play with a party, or obtain some NPCs for a temporary help, whatever.
This kit is not about
(It is up to you whether you want to start off with locks/traps or moving silently, obviously it will greatly affect the game style in BG/SoD only. ).
Logic behind it is simple, after Dex tome you will have 19 Dex and lockpicking/traps will rise to 40-45 (with another 5 in a far future from the Machine of Lum the Mad, Dex+1, making it 45-50).
So if you play solo and so desperately want to open at least some chests and disarm some traps then:
Potion of Master Thievery x1= 80-85 / 40-45
Potion of Perception x1 = 60-65 / 60-65
Potion of Perception x2 = 80-85 / 80-85
Potion of Perception x3 =Unlock all , Find/Disarm all
Potion of Master Thievery x1+Potion of Perception x1 = Unlock all / 80-85 Traps
And then:
BG2 Ring of Danger Sense = x /+25 (+30 with another Dex stat)
BG2 Ring of Lock Picks = +25 / x (+30 with another Dex stat)
In BG2 we can easily mostly use 1 Potion of Perception + Ring.
Now let's get to more important stuff: Move Silently and Hide In Shadows
-To initiate stealth we go with formula (HiS+MS)/2+Environment (basically look for darker places, won't matter much later on), while remaining in stealth depends only on MS.
-So MS is our priority, since its still adding to (HiS+MS)/2 the same amount as HiS.
(10+0)/2 = (0+10)/2 (Duh)
I personally have 220 points in MS, the rest goes to HiS. With Dex +2 I have 230 and in case I want to wear Boots of Stealth, I'm getting very close to 255 and it would be really bad if I somehow got over 255
HiS is gonna have like 70-105 points, depending on how many points were put into locks/traps. (80-115 with dex+2).
After you put on Shadow Armor or Night's Gift, HiS=85/90 - 120/125, and with Boots of Stealth 100/105-135/140.
Now don't get me wrong, Boots of Stealth are great, since you get both MS and HiS from them, so while MS gets +20, the chance to go stealth gets additional (20+15)/2, BUT!! for me it's an overkill and I find Boots of Speed much much better for Shadowdancer/Fighter game style (more on that later), plus you can always drink a Potion of Perception for additional 20 HiS, but I highly doubt that you'd ever need it, I don't.
This is what we'll have at level 13 as a Shadowdancer, the reason we are going 13 is for backstab x4, and also any lower level may not give us enough points for MS/HiS. Again, to get it out of the way - backstab x4 that you can constantly do one after another is more satisfactory than Assassin's x7 (so you do it once and what? so you use HLA and then what? bet it really feels like you're an assassin! No, I don't think so, Shadowdancer feels like a true mass murdering ninja assassin. Yes, sure you can carry 1000 potions of invisibility as an Assassin, yeah right, or I've got a better one: you can enter and exit areas like a million times throughout the game, mwahahaha enjoy!)
The reason we went with a Shadowdancer in the first place was due to => Hide in plain sight, while being observed!
And now Profeciencies:
Waste points into anything you desire for whatever reasons while you are Shadowdancer just to make it a more comfortable play without penalties etc. Unfortunately, you're really mostly wasting points, oh well, such is a path towards Sh/F greatness.
When you dual to a Fighter, there are 4 approaches that I offer, 2 of which are theoretical
:1.)
Quarterstaff: Grand mastery (max)
Two-Handed Weapon Style: Max
Long bow or Short bow: Grand mastery (max)
(while my BG allows swapping between duals and two-handed, my BG2 doesn't, so I don't bother with ideas like Quarterstaff/dual Katanas or whatever, where you backstab with Staff of the Ram and then switch to Katanas immediately for some slashing fun, in which case you could start with Katana grand mastery+dual, and then Quarterstaff+THW. Doesn't have to be a Katana, but it's decent for backstabbing until you get the OP staff)
This is my way, just for the Staff of the Ram and Bow on swap, and whirlwind is not bad at all
.2.)
Your main weapon or Katana: Grand mastery (max)
Single-Weapon Style: Max
Long bow or Short bow: Grand mastery (max)
Quarterstaff: 1 (while being Shadowdancer, for example, just for crush dmg availibility)
(Here you can carry a single melee weapon and a bow without slot issues in BG2, instead of a quarterstaff you can choose your main backstabbing weapon and go for a single weapon style, since getting that Staff of Ram is quite a journey, although we would find any other enchanted staffs helpful for their crushing dmg
. So here you will still have 19/20 roll on crit when not backstabbing plus -2 AC) 3.) Theoretical (I'll hide it under spoiler, so it doesn't take additional space):
Your main weapon/ Katana: Grand mastery (max)
Two-Weapon Style: Max
Quarterstaff: Grand mastery (max)
Two-Handed Weapon Style: 1 ( I think it's 1, can't be bothered to calculate)
(This is the one I was talking about earlier, if BG2 allowed swaps between Two-handed and Duals, backstab with Ram, swap and have fun with dual finish, just to have some fun with different weapons)
Two-Weapon Style: Max
Quarterstaff: Grand mastery (max)
Two-Handed Weapon Style: 1 ( I think it's 1, can't be bothered to calculate)
(This is the one I was talking about earlier, if BG2 allowed swaps between Two-handed and Duals, backstab with Ram, swap and have fun with dual finish, just to have some fun with different weapons)
4.) Theoretical:
Your main weapon/ Katana: Grand mastery (max)
Two-Weapon Style: Max
Long Bow or Short Bow: Grand mastery (max)
Quarterstaff: 1-2 (whatever, not calculating it)
(Quarterstaff in the inventory, Duals+Bow basically)
Two-Weapon Style: Max
Long Bow or Short Bow: Grand mastery (max)
Quarterstaff: 1-2 (whatever, not calculating it)
(Quarterstaff in the inventory, Duals+Bow basically)
Now why did I put Bows? (apart from obvious reasons of dealing fire dmg)
Shadowdancer13/Fighter game style is closer to Diablo style, it's hit and slash, barely ever pausing, just micro-controlling your character.
I use bows for extra fun, since repetitive hide->backstab can become tiresome, I left for you to decide which bow type to master, basically it's either Short Bows->Tuigan for its APR (Attacks per round) and DPS, then combined with Boots of Speed you just hit and run, need to get into the rhythm, no need to click on whom you wish to attack, since I kinda get the feeling it gets in the way and actually attack command breaks the APR, better to use script for auto-attacks and just use move, so you move slightly->auto-shoot->move->auto-shoot etc.. or from Long Bows we can go with Strong Arm or Taralash, you've guessed it - for speed movement, plus Boots of Speed
for running around. Now, you probably don't want to use scripts when you're backstabbing, so bow tactics mentioned above are only for those times when you're tired of hide/backstabs.
So, we mainly play without scripts, but we can still apply our bow on occasion, I'll give you a hint: Arrow of Biting, Hide
Now that's just being nasty!!! That's why I mentioned Taralash, because if you don't intend on having fun with bow from time to time, then you could just use it for bonus movement and +5 thac0 along with grand mastery so your arrow of biting hits, they aren't unlimited you know, you get them from special stock in the Adventurer's Mart Of course it's just for your pleasure, test it out, those saves vs death in BG2 might not allow you to abuse it like in BG1, you know that Dragon in SoD, oh man, she cried.Also it's logical to use bows when not constantly backstabbing, because you don't have great AC, you're not wearing plate armor (Hide In Shadow), but that being said, you can still just use melee only, since time spent invisible is your kind of AC improvement if you get what I mean, it's like you're only seen for a while after backstab.
Basically Shadowdancer/Fighter is a total pain in the ass, as mentioned above, you can combine some nasty tactics to annoy and frustrate your enemy for your emotional pleasure.
Some additional tips
- Annoy wizards until they become harmless: you can cancel plenty of wizard spells directed at you, just wait till they start casting and go stealth, you can repeat that until they have nothing left in their arsenal. Even if it's something like fear etc. you can still do it and will remain invisible and unscratched, just will have to wait out it's effect. Your own spell immunity
- You can wait in stealth until most of nasty enemy protections run out, I think it mostly takes like half a minute, or (4 rounds, 24 sec)
- To break out of stealth without attacking you can just use 'dialog' on yourself, this is in case you want to stay at distance or as mentioned above speed up the process of wiping wizard's memorized spells.
- You can try arrow of biting on someone and deal with others through backstabs, repeat, by the time you've killed lackeys, the main threat might be also near death)
- I'd recommend hot-keying melee weapon, stealth and bow to let's say A,S,D , while you can make 1,2,3 for potions. (I told you it's more of a Diablo play style) so you don't have to pause, just 'S' - stealth, get behind (Boots of Speed rly speed up the process), 'A'->switch to melee weapon, backstab then either stay at melee range and use HLA's whatever, or press 'D' (bows) and move away, shoot, wait for stealth availability -> 'S', repeat
. I might add some other info later on, for now it should be enough to get some people interested in trying it out.
